What is Ki?

[Midgardsormr]

I've been thinking about it a little bit, and it may come down to a matter of that word "source." Ki and psionic power are both internal power—inherent in the practitioner, whose training brings it forth to manifest outside of the body. In a sense, they are both a mystical "self" power. While the two things are quite dissimilar, they're really not much further apart than some of the other variations in 4e power sources.

For instance, both the Warlock and the Wizard utilize the Arcane (literally "hidden, secret") power source, but while the Wizard's power comes from the study of hidden knowledge, the Warlock's comes from a bond with a supernatural force.

Another example would be the Druid and Barbarian. Both are Primal ("basic, essential, first") heroes, but the Druid draws on a symbiotic relationship with nature, while the Barbarian taps his animalistic essence.

I think I might have chosen a different name for the Psionic power source, but I think a case can be made that psionics and ki bear a certain similarity that makes it reasonable to lump them together into a single category. I don't know what name I would pick, though. Maybe simply Internal?

edit: and I see I have cross-posted with two others who have said much the same thing. Great minds think alike, but what's our excuse?

[Gamerprinter]

You're missing my point here. Ki is in fact only partially internal.

In my mind a PC utilizing Ki energy to power spells and effects is using Ki within himself, his fellow party members, the ground that he stands on and other elements surrounding him. In fact a manifester of Ki could actually draw Ki source from an opponent's Ki, especially if the opponent is not a Ki manifester.

Psionics is individual only. Ki is everywhere.

While manufactured goods contain Ki for instance, it is much less so than an natural rock, tree, stream or animal. When in a city environment, though Ki is present (especially in people), but weaker as the Ki in manufactured goods is weaker.

If both Ki and Psionics were internal to oneself only - I'd say you're right, the difference is only semantic. However, I know that Ki is everywhere, thus a Ki class is accessing power from everything around him, including himself.

To me, that's a huge difference. And I enforce that difference in my Kaidan Japan-based setting.

@Karro, while it may seem silly to us, in the orient, that rock with Ki in it that is just sitting there is actually doing something - its sitting there absorbing the energy at that location. It is not inert, and is as much alive as we are. Just that rocks don't move - which is part of its "life cycle."

GP

PS: except that Ki is also internal, I think it would be a better argument that Ki and Primal was the same thing - much truer than Ki and Psionics.

[msa]

You're missing my point here. Ki is in fact only partially internal.

I think the point we are all making is that the mechanics end up being pretty much the same. Ki and Psionics users both manifest their ability through inner focus and meditation. They both use their power to augment their own strength, sense the world around them, and create and wield latent energy. So the difference is mostly flavor.

The truth is, I always just assumed psionics were rules for an eastern style of power anyways. The whole concept is just not well defined in western mythology, where humans largely petition external sources for power. I just thought psionics were a fantasy version of the force... eastern-inspired mystical power.

Now I'm not saying this isn't a valid or interesting avenue to explore in your game or your work. I just think that, to us uninitiated, the difference between the two is pretty marginal. If you want them to be different, it might be interesting to have ki work worse in cities or have slightly different effects. But I also think you could just reflavor 'psionics' to 'ki' a bit and very little would be lost.

[Gamerprinter]

Much of this talk is academic. I am as much speaking of the concept of Ki outside the game, as it is a part of it.

In Japan, those manufactured good that have an intended short life span, such as a folding fan or a pair of straw sandles, as opposed to furniture, a house or a ship - can come alive, after a century of continued survival.

Theres a story of an old man that bought a pair of straw sandles. Under normal use, depending on how much walking he does, a pair of straw sandles can last a week or a few months. The old man died shortly after buying them, and for some reason the sandles got buried in the closet so to speak, and disappeared. A century later, the great grandson of the old man, found the pair of sandles and they moved and danced around.

So although taking a much longer period of time, that inert rock could become animated through the power of Ki. So all things have Ki and are alive, just not the same as normal living things.

The rock doesn't require a brain or other proof of animal/plant life, yet not only does it store Ki, Ki can give the rock supernatural life aspects.

I know this doesn't matter to the game, but further as differences to what Ki really is.

GP

[Valarian]

Given that rocks have Ki energy, but no brains, therefore possess ki power but not psychic power, the question that immediately pops in my mind is: can the rock, of it's own will, actually do anything with its ki energy?

@Karro, while it may seem silly to us, in the orient, that rock with Ki in it that is just sitting there is actually doing something - its sitting there absorbing the energy at that location. It is not inert, and is as much alive as we are. Just that rocks don't move - which is part of its "life cycle."

I was going to throw in a similar point. As an animist, I find the discussion interesting, even without the reference to D&D4e. From an animist's point of view, all living things (which include natural things such as rocks, mountains, etc.) contain a soul (life-force / anima) - which seems to be very similar to the concept of the Ki.

[Karro]

You're missing my point here. Ki is in fact only partially internal.
Psionics is individual only. Ki is everywhere.

@Karro, while it may seem silly to us, in the orient, that rock with Ki in it that is just sitting there is actually doing something - its sitting there absorbing the energy at that location. It is not inert, and is as much alive as we are. Just that rocks don't move - which is part of its "life cycle."

GP

PS: except that Ki is also internal, I think it would be a better argument that Ki and Primal was the same thing - much truer than Ki and Psionics.

I think you're touching on part of why I, personally, find your argument not completely convincing, rendering this a semantic debate. I'll allow that the association of degree of "naturalness" of an object may render it more or less powerful or inert with regards to ki, which from a certain outlook is vastly different from a typical understanding of psionics.

But where I think you're wrong is the assertion that psionics is only internal. Because psionics involves doing something external to the body without the physical effort of the body itself, this implies, to me, that the "mental exertion", per se, is being performed through some medium. Since the results of that exertion are external to the psionic user, the medium, by necessity, is also external. I suggest this is the case because if the power were only internal, then the psionicist would only be able to affect things internally (i.e. self-heal, increase in strength, etc) but not affect things externally except through the medium of his own body. To me, the fact that the power can be applied externally implies that the power has an external component. In the case of psionics, the means of activation, of accessing this external medium, is internal via the mind, but the power still manifests externally.

The question then arises: what is this medium by which a psionic user is able to exert his/her mental influence on the world outside him/herself? If that medium were the omnipresent will of a diety, we would call the power "divine". If that medium was some strange and unseen mystical energy derived from the resonnance from elemental material planes (or whatever your preferred explanation for the source of magic in D&D) then we'd call it "arcane" power. Both Ki and Psionics seems to be something else... something that is invisible and exists within the world and is manipulable through conscious application of effort. Are these energies the same? Who can tell? They're both invisible and omnipresent and cannot be detected through any of the normal sensory means.

Another way I have of looking at it is that psionics is a codification of so-called "ESP" and parapsychology. The connection, again, is that if we're "perceiving" something with non-standard senses, then there is something there to be perceived with non-standard senses, or that all things have a quality that lies beyond the physical characteristics we are normally aware of (size, color, shape, mass, sound, texture, etc. etc.)

To your point, however, given the connection between ki and the natural world, and the degree to which ki is influenced by something natural, inherent, and primal I think you can build a strong case that ki is, in fact, a part of this "natural" or "primal" category of power forces.

At the end of the day, I am neither for nor against "ki" as a source of energy being classifed with or without "psionics". To me, the difference is primarily one of flavor and fluff for the game. Especially since all powers mechanically work the same, apparently, in 4e. So if the flavor and fluff don't suit you, then I agree that's a valid reason for you to eschew 4e. My only point here is to demonstrate, probably redundantly, that you can argue that they are the same thing. I even thought up a story once where they effectively were the same thing. A setting or story where they are totally different and work in completely different ways is also conceivable. That's why I think it's a semantic question: it's all about how you think about it.

[NeonKnight]

Yeah, put me down as another person who disliked Monks in D&D (too much like Xena Warrior Princess for me )

Now, that wasn't to say I didn't have them. I had an oriental area in my old world, but they were not common place, and certainly no-one campaigning in my World's Physical location of Jolly Ol' England would not walk around a corner and find a fist full of monks waiting for them.

But I do agree with the concept of Ki (chi, or however), being different from Psionics

[Nomadic]

MSA lighten up, I wasn't insulting you. Based on your replies I simply am deducing that you don't have the viewpoint of the two forms that I do. Ignorance of a subject isn't stupidity, just lack of insight into that subject. For example I am ignorant of tailoring but that doesn't mean I am an idiot.

Karro, reread what I said. You can't be a believer in ki in the same sense that you can be a believer in god. Ki isn't religious. Anyhow, don't run down the everything is faith path because I know that one well

[EldritchNumen]

I've been reading this thread with interest, and don't have anything to directly add to the conversations in play.

I do think, however, that it is worth noticing an interesting parallel. Like the word "spirit" (from the Latin spiritus, meaning "breath"), the word chi (ki, etc., also meaning "breath" is an variety of Oriental languages, stemming from the Chinese) has a pretty wide range of meanings. Ask any native English speaker what spirit is, and you're likely to get an extremely wide range of answers. Certain traditions (scientific, religious, philosophical, philological, and so forth) will have different answers, of course. But many people will have a vague idea that it exists, but not be able to effectively articulate exactly what it is, when pressed.

Chi, even in an Oriental context, is like this. Various groups and even individuals define it differently, and agreement comes only in wide strokes. So, a certain martial tradition might make a distinction between chi and ki like some have suggested, while others might maintain that they are the same thing. (As an aside, the two are simply different Romanizations of the same root word from various Oriental languages; semantically, they are virtually indistinguishable.)

What is the point of this? This: the power source "ki" refers to a very general sort of power (others have made this point).

Pretend, for example, that there was a power source called "spirit." Some might (convincingly and rightly) argue that spirit is essentially mental, and thus overlaps with psionic power, which is also essentially mental; on the other hand, one might (also convincingly and rightly) argue that spirit is essentially rooted in a precognitive and intuitive relationship with the world, and thus deserves its own separate category; one might even (convincingly and rightly) argue that spirit is synonymous with natural, or divine, or even martial power sources, depending upon one's conception of what spirit itself is.

So, I agree with the suggestions regarding semantic usage: take ki and make it mean whatever you want it too in your game. I suspect that none of us would, when pressed, agree as to what divine, arcane, or even martial power sources are! (Does martial power come from disciplined training, as for the fighter? An uncanny physical grace, as for rogues? A thorough grasp of tactics and unyielding determination, as for a warlord [and doesn't that sound more mental than physical]? Even our assumption that martial power arises from physical prowess is challenged by the core books).

We know that ki is oriental, mysterious, and a source of energy that can transform the world. It is accessed through some combination of mental and physical cultivation or training. That's enough; take it and make it something that adds to your story and to your world. (If we look closely enough, this is what we do every day with our own lives anyway).

[msa]

@Karro: Nicely said.

@EN: That was a very important and well-made point

@Nomad: Sorry I got grumpy. I'm trying not to troll. But you assumed wrong, and it was offensive.

A decade ago, when I was your age, I had studied aikido for three years, I was lucky to have taken the mat with 2 of the Oosensei's students, I had 6 years of japanese language (my high school offered it o.O), and I was 3 years out of a heavy Taoism + meditation phase. That said, I wasn't drinking the koolaid nearly as deeply as you, but its unlikely that you have much more experience with eastern culture and mysticism than I had. Then. A decade ago.

I would suggest that you open yourself up to the possibility that my attitude is a result of wisdom and experience and not ignorance. The difference between ki and chi, if there is one (EN's point is very good and you should read it carefully), is marginal at best. And... it is a belief. It is not any more measurable and verifiable than, say, the power of prayer. This is not meant disparaging, btw... they are both lovely things if you can believe in them, and faith is a noble thing. But you've got to call a spade a spade.