What is Ki?

[RPMiller]

As a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan (note the word Chi in the name) I am as intimate with Chi as Nomadic is with Ki. I can tell you a good amount about Chi. As someone whose best friend practiced Aikido I can also tell you about Ki. Before I do, I have two items to address:

1. Some of the above comments are getting a little heated. I suggest that those of you that are taking things personally should step away from this thread and cool off a little. If the posts continue to get heated I will lock this thread and talk to the offenders. (Note the D&D thread to understand the seriousness.) More on this later.

2. Nomadic, where are you getting your information on Chi? I am assuming that it is coming from your Aikido teacher, is that assumption correct? I am curious to get the answer before I move on.

[Karro]

Karro, reread what I said. You can't be a believer in ki in the same sense that you can be a believer in god. Ki isn't religious. Anyhow, don't run down the everything is faith path because I know that one well

I don't think I "ran down the everything is faith path", as I specifically tried to set up a dichotomy of that which is provable or understandable through non-faith-based measures versus that which can only be understood through faith-based measures. This might be something of a continuum between the two, but largely I find things either to be in the one category or the other. But to put the point in a way that takes "god" out of the equation, let's compare "ki" to a human "spirit". Let's assume no one worships this "spirit" in a divine sense (probably not exactly true, but for the sake of argument, let's simplify this and ignore that circumstance). Now, can you touch or taste or otherwise prove the existence of the spirit? No; but you can be a believer in spirit. You can believe it exists, or you can believe it does not exist. What evidence supports this belief? Faith is one primary support for this belief. Based on this presupposed faith and understanding of it, you are then open to the possibility of experiencing it in a more physical way, but without this faith-based understanding you will not be able to do so. Now, can you touch or taste or otherwise prove the existence of ki? No; but you can be a believer in ki. You can believe it exists, or you can believe it does not exist. Some of us who are not adherents to an eastern philosophical system do not believe in the existence of ki. Why? Either because (a) it has not been proven to exist or (b) we do not have a faith in it or a cultural perception that presupposes the existence of it. Of course, this is not proof either of the non-existence nor of the existence of it. For those who do believe in ki, I would suspect that as with the spirit, they are open to and able to experience something that attests to them of its existence. For those of us who have no such understanding, we cannot. That, I think, is the essence of faith.

So, I'm trying not to be offensive in anyone's belief systems. As I said, I have my own belief system to which I adhere, and I believe strongly that the tenets of that system are true and real. But I also recognize that most of those tenets are not verifiable in a scientific or physical way, and only understandable through an alternate means of experience. I recognize that other people are equally as convinced that their belief systems are true, and like I said, I respect that. I don't adhere to their belief systems, but I respect that they believe in them, and I don't mean to suggest that their belief systems are not true or real. I'm just trying to demonstrate a parallel in the means by which we come to understand and believe in our various belief systems, regardless of the differences between those systems, and how that belief informs our ability to experience and test our beliefs. As an aside to this, though, now that I think of it, one possible hang-up is the fact that "faith" or "belief" as I've outlined it is probably mostly a western concept. To a practioner or adherent of eastern-based philosophies, it might seem inappropriate to apply a western concept. Which goes back to the "semantic debate" point: that we're understanding these things based on different cultural and linguistic mindframes that do not have a complete overlap.

I've been reading this thread with interest, and don't have anything to directly add to the conversations in play.

We know that ki is oriental, mysterious, and a source of energy that can transform the world. It is accessed through some combination of mental and physical cultivation or training. That's enough; take it and make it something that adds to your story and to your world. (If we look closely enough, this is what we do every day with our own lives anyway).

I think you added very well to the conversation. That was really my point at first, but I think you put it in a way that was quite eloquent! Particularly if we remove ourselves from our real-world outlook on these things, it becomes even easier to decide what outlook we would find most interesting within the context of a fictional world. I figured that was the point of the thread in the first place, was in comparing ki and psionic powers in a fictional context. So at the end of the day, I think we should divorce the concept of "ki" and "psionic powers" in a fictional sense from our preconceived notions of what those are in a real-world sense.

RP: my apologies if I acted overheated, myself. I hope my thoughts aren't offensive to you, as a practioner of Tai Chi, as it is certainly not my intent to be offensive. Out of curiosity, what is your understaning of chi versus ki, if that's not too far off the topic of this thread?

[Nomadic]

Nomadic, where are you getting your information on Chi? I am assuming that it is coming from your Aikido teacher, is that assumption correct? I am curious to get the answer before I move on.

Nope, I am getting the information from my sister. She's in massage therapy, primarily eastern massage. Eastern massage therapy uses Chi very heavily. She's also been interested in eastern culture since a very early age so she has been an excellent source of fascinating information on the region.

I get my Ki knowledge from Aikido obviously (Shinshintouitsu Aikido, also known as Ki Aikido for it's primary focus on the Ki aspect of Aikido). From both what my teacher and others have said as well as what I have personally noticed I have come to view Ki as a non-mystical, non-spiritual thing. It can be scientifically measured and tested and it's results even without equipment are pretty obvious (and quite amazing).

Anyhow at MSA, in the interest of maintaining the peace I am not going to read your earlier posts nor fault you for anything. I am sorry if you took what I said the wrong way but I wasn't using ignorant in a derogatory manner nor calling you a moron. There seems to be alot of misconception about what it really means.

ig⋅no⋅rant (/ˈɪgnərənt/)
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

Hopefully now people will understand what I mean when I use that. Anyhow my use of it was based off viewing responses that I felt were incorrect (and slightly offensive as I am a christian and while I respect believers of other religions I would never partake in them myself; that's partly why I got a bit hot around the collar myself). Anyhow again I am sorry for misconceptions and for what happened.

[RPMiller]

I'm going to purposely not capitalize ki and chi, but I understand that some feel that it should be capitalized. Let's chalk this up to me being tired and lazy.

Nope, I am getting the information from my sister. She's in massage therapy, primarily eastern massage. Eastern massage therapy uses Chi very heavily. She's also been interested in eastern culture since a very early age so she has been an excellent source of fascinating information on the region.

I see. That explains what you believe. While your sister is correct, she also doesn't understand the completeness of chi. Chi is, for the most part, essentially the same as ki, as others have stated. You have to remember that the Japanese people are "ex-Chinese." They came to Japan and to some extent bred with the original inhabitants, but mostly they subjugated them. Some of the descendants of those original inhabitants still live in the northern most areas of the island of Hokkaido, but all that is for a different discussion. The point is that when the Chinese migrated there, they brought many of their ideas and one of those was chi. I won't bore you with all the additional info as I could go on for a long time. I should mention that I work for a Japanese company so a lot of my knowledge comes first hand from my Japanese co-workers.

Anyway... More to come farther down.

I get my Ki knowledge from Aikido obviously (Shinshintouitsu Aikido, also known as Ki Aikido for it's primary focus on the Ki aspect of Aikido). From both what my teacher and others have said as well as what I have personally noticed I have come to view Ki as a non-mystical, non-spiritual thing. It can be scientifically measured and tested and it's results even without equipment are pretty obvious (and quite amazing).

Ah yes... the measuring and testing statement... This is a perfect segue into what chi is. I have read about those tests, and should point out here that the "scientists" doing the tests call the energy they are measuring both chi and ki. Chi is the Chinese word, and ki is the Japanese. Anyway, if you read that study very carefully, there are some logic fallacies and some non scientific steps that they take to "prove" that the energy is real. It is unfortunate as far as I'm concerned as you'll read in a moment.

When I first started practicing Tai Chi Chuan, I didn't believe in the full extent of chi, but I did experience it as a youth in a very small dose. Chinese healer... again long story. Anyway, when I started learning, my teacher was an American who had learned from a master in China, (cool story, but also long) he lived there for 15 years with the master and studyed everyday from sun up to sun down. So, I definitely gave him a good amount of credit, but remained somewhat skeptical.

Before you start the martial aspects you have to learn the various exercises as these help build up the chi within the practitioner. Again, my attitude, was "okay, whatever, I'll play along." There are various exercises that you do prior to doing the "forms." These exercises are comprised of various stretches and strikes to pressure points that are intended to free up the flow of chi. I'll skip the pages of description of the specifics. Let's just say that you need to be fit to do about half of them. After a couple weeks of doing these exercises everyday, I was suddenly shocked when, in the middle of "Horse Turns and Looks to the Moon" (loosely translated), my hands began to heat up and tingle. (That is the only way to describe it really.) Note that I had been doing these same exercises with no effects for a couple weeks already. I stopped and stood up and had to shake my hands to stop them from tingling. My teacher looked at me curiously and smiled and then said without me asking, "That is chi."

Jump forward several months. All 8 of us are lined up in the teacher's backyard (did I mention this is a private class?) and he tells us that it is time for a couple of us to experience the more "forceful" aspect of chi. I sort of had an idea what that could mean but I was ready for what happened. He walked up to me, touched his fingertips to my chest and then rocked back onto his heals. His hand flew forward palm facing me, and stopped the moment it touched it touched my shirt... As I pushed myself up to my elbows from the prone position I had assumed about 6' from where I had been standing, a sudden and painful throbbing started at my back and moved forward to my chest. The teacher came over and helped me to my feet and after a few passes over what I assumed were various pressure points and chi points, the pain went away. Note, that he did not "hit" me, but rather gently tapped my chest with his palm. I had no bruise from the impact the following day and no pain. I then believed in the power of chi in an offensive use...

If you have read this far, I commend you. I'm going to stop here and sum things up, and post more later if there are questions or directed comments. To sum up my experiences, Nomadic's description of ki above very much fits with my understanding of chi as well. The primary difference I believe in the definitions that are applied is that ki tends to be somewhat restricted to the martial aspects while chi extends into the healing arts as well. I firmly believe that the actual energy itself is the same and what they were seeing in that aforementioned study. I really wish that they had done a better job with that study because I really want to know what this internal energy is and how it works. To this day I can generate it in my hands within seconds, and have had my close friends feel the energy themselves to show that I'm not fooling around.

Anyhow at MSA, in the interest of maintaining the peace I am not going to read your earlier posts nor fault you for anything. I am sorry if you took what I said the wrong way but I wasn't using ignorant in a derogatory manner nor calling you a moron. There seems to be alot of misconception about what it really means.

Yes, your definition is correct, and it is unfortunate that so many take the word in such a negative light. This is why I personally refrain from using it and instead use the definition itself.

[Gamerprinter]

Wow, RP! You've definitely got me intrigued and can't wait to hear more. Not that there's room here, but I'd also love to hear the "long stories" that belong in another thread regarding your tale.

While I believe I have a good understanding of the basics of what Chi/Ki is, I haven't truly experienced it myself, thus its difficult to convey what it is to the uninitiated. I end up, sounding like a Ki religious missionary, but when cornered I can't give evidence to take it from what I believe to what it truly is.

Mostly when I say Ki is real, I usually get the stares of being some kind of weirdo. Of course much of the problem is many hear the idea of Chi/Ki through Anime and Manga, and those audiences of that material (of which I am not) see this as a flavor of oriental magic to drive the effects being done by the characters in the storyline. Too often, it is used to describe the fantasy idea of Ki - flying, stopping in midair, floating, creating fire and ice balls to throw at opponents and other such purely fantasy ideas that come out of Ki.

Thus to the uninitiated Ki can't be real, just a "belief system" of the orient and nothing more.

I look forward to your continued dissertation on the subject.

GP

PS: I'd love to give you some REP for this wonderful discussion - of course, I need to spread the love, before I can give you more, but for the first time in a while, I am in REP debt to you, as you often have been in the same position to REPping me!

[Steel General]

[temporay discussion suspension]

Nothing wrong with a serious discussion, as long as it doesn't get 'heated', spiteful, etc.

msa apologized for his reaction to being termed 'ignorant' and I think that's as far as that needs to be taken.

[resume discussion]

[msa]

msa apologized for his reaction to being termed 'ignorant' and I think that's as far as that needs to be taken.

Was I bad? I thought I behaved myself. Oh bother...

[Steel General]

Was I bad? I thought I behaved myself. Oh bother...

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. Though the discussion did get a bit "warm" there for a few posts.

[msa]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. Though the discussion did get a bit "warm" there for a few posts.

Ah good My trollin' roots run deep. I didn't even know there were civil forums on teh internets before I came here. I'm new to behavin', so I'm not always sure if I'm doing it right.

[dormouse]

We looked at psionics, asked ourselves 'would it add to the game?', decided not and have never thought about it since.

Since we play 1e, ki never came into the picture. I can see that it might be possible for it to add to the game in an eastern setting - even be necessary to it. No idea if it actually works like that in practice.