What is Ki?

[Steel General]

Was I bad? I thought I behaved myself. Oh bother...

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. Though the discussion did get a bit "warm" there for a few posts.

[msa]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. Though the discussion did get a bit "warm" there for a few posts.

Ah good My trollin' roots run deep. I didn't even know there were civil forums on teh internets before I came here. I'm new to behavin', so I'm not always sure if I'm doing it right.

[Nomadic]

Nomadic, where are you getting your information on Chi? I am assuming that it is coming from your Aikido teacher, is that assumption correct? I am curious to get the answer before I move on.

Nope, I am getting the information from my sister. She's in massage therapy, primarily eastern massage. Eastern massage therapy uses Chi very heavily. She's also been interested in eastern culture since a very early age so she has been an excellent source of fascinating information on the region.

I get my Ki knowledge from Aikido obviously (Shinshintouitsu Aikido, also known as Ki Aikido for it's primary focus on the Ki aspect of Aikido). From both what my teacher and others have said as well as what I have personally noticed I have come to view Ki as a non-mystical, non-spiritual thing. It can be scientifically measured and tested and it's results even without equipment are pretty obvious (and quite amazing).

Anyhow at MSA, in the interest of maintaining the peace I am not going to read your earlier posts nor fault you for anything. I am sorry if you took what I said the wrong way but I wasn't using ignorant in a derogatory manner nor calling you a moron. There seems to be alot of misconception about what it really means.

ig⋅no⋅rant (/ˈɪgnərənt/)
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

Hopefully now people will understand what I mean when I use that. Anyhow my use of it was based off viewing responses that I felt were incorrect (and slightly offensive as I am a christian and while I respect believers of other religions I would never partake in them myself; that's partly why I got a bit hot around the collar myself). Anyhow again I am sorry for misconceptions and for what happened.

[Karro]

For me only, I'm not religious at all. Not to say I'm an athiest, because I'm not, however, I don't treat religion as all that important to me.

When I started this discussion, I hadn't intended it to go down the religious road. At the same time the treatment whether a religion or system of beliefs in game should be taken serious by the characters, or players in a roleplaying sense - not that players should actually belief in this or that. However if the characters don't take these beliefs serious, to me at least, the suspension of disbelief fails and the game is lessened somehow.

One skewed idea of mine is that psionics is science fiction, though I enjoy reading science fiction and have played sci-fi RP games (traveller, space opera) in the past. I don't do so today, and my fellow gamers in our group would never play those games. We like fantasy, because we already live in modern and future is just too close to modern for our tastes.

Perhaps because I separate sci-fi from fantasy as a distinct hardline, I don't want psionics to intrude in my fantasy game - which is probably at the heart of my dislike at "how much Ki is like Psionics and how it doesn't really matter." And why the decision to drop Ki in 4e and put psionics in its place, is so hard for me to deal with.

For me it does matter. Keep the force of Star Wars away from my elves and samurai. I don't play Star Wars RPG and don't want to bring its baggage into my fantasy game.

As a DM, I've never allowed psionics to even come in play. When a player asks for a psionics character, I say "no, I don't allow it. There is no such thing as psionics in my worlds." (My mind flayers are mind flayers and not Illithidae.)

I'm sorry that the discussion has become so serious and heated.

GP

Generally, I agree with you. I'm not really a fan of "psionics" in fantasy in the first place, as it seems a little more sci-fi flavored to me, too.

What's funny is I always thought that Star Wars force was a sci-fantasy (not sci-fi) reinterpretation of something like this "ki" concept, and not at all like psionics. Some of the posts above in their description of "ki" seemed to confirm it for me, as I thought "man, that sounds like the Force".

Sorry for beating the religion drum; now it comes to it, I'm not entirely sure why I went down that road. On the other hand, if you consider some kind of ki-force to be a part of the belief system of those people, and then consider that in a fantasy setting people's belief systems and religion have a knack for being real and having some really cool special effects, it does kind of make you stop and think about what the implications of that belief system are in the fantastic context.

[msa]

What's funny is I always thought that Star Wars force was a sci-fantasy (not sci-fi) reinterpretation of something like this "ki" concept, and not at all like psionics. Some of the posts above in their description of "ki" seemed to confirm it for me, as I thought "man, that sounds like the Force".

Ah. I second the part about the force and ki. I also just thought that psionics was a culture- and brand-neutral word for the same thing. Apparently 'psionics' is a term from sci-fi literature that I wasn't aware of. I'm afraid I don't read much sci-fi or fantasy.

@Nomad: don't use ignorant in polite conversation. Its pejorative. Also, it would probably do you plenty of good to read all the posts in this thread--even mine. Also, I'd love to see a citation on this:

It can be scientifically measured and tested and it's results even without equipment are pretty obvious (and quite amazing).

[dormouse]

We looked at psionics, asked ourselves 'would it add to the game?', decided not and have never thought about it since.

Since we play 1e, ki never came into the picture. I can see that it might be possible for it to add to the game in an eastern setting - even be necessary to it. No idea if it actually works like that in practice.

[Gamerprinter]

Another skewed belief of mine is that there are only two kinds of sci-fi.

1. Hard science fiction - like the stuff of Niven, Clarke, and Heinlein. Hard sci-fi uses science and scientific ideas to create the fantastical future elements that drive that kind of story.

2. Pseudo science fiction - like Star Wars, Hubbard, Piers Anthony, and Vonnegut. Pseudo sci-fi uses the tropes of science fiction as flavor to go into philosophical, and otherwise purely fantasy storylines.

I prefer hard sci-fi. I never read pseudo sci-fi. Science Fantasy falls under pseudo science fiction (by my defintaion.) and although a fun movie series to watch, its not something I want to play.

Not that there's anything wrong with either, just a preference for one over the other.

Time travel could be real, psionics could be real, elves aren't real - I prefer elves and dragons, etc.

GP

[Karro]

Another skewed belief of mine is that there are only two kinds of sci-fi.

GP

I wouldn't say it's skewed, but as a classification system it's definitely not very fine-grained. You know; to each his own, and all that!

(As a general rule, I also prefer fantasy!)

[Pilias]

Rather than further derail the D&D 4e Verdict thread, I thought I'd carry this question to a new thread. My last two posts in the 4e thread discussed this as it regards the D&D game.

One of the arguments on the Gleemax boards regarding the differences between Ki and Psionics. In that Ki is spiritual power, whereas Psionics is mental power. Since in western thought the mind and body is one and inseparable until death, the idea that Ki could be considered the same thing as Pychic power, it shouldn't matter to the game, that's really the same thing.

The flaw in that argument is in the orient, everything has Ki in it. Every rock, plant, sentient, nonsentient, organic and inorganic, even manufactured goods has Ki within it.

Ki is spirit energy, however its the spirit in all things not just the individual.

The belief in Ki (or its other names: qi, chi, prana, etc.) is strongly tied to oriental martial arts, yoga, and other eastern disciplines. It's derived from Taoism/Daoism which has influenced most of the oriental world before Buddhism and other oriental beliefs. Its related to medicinal treatments in pre-modern times (and still practiced today.)

Rocks don't have brains therefore can't be psionic, thus Psionics and Ki has nothing much in common.

Enough of my ranting - any thoughts on this?

GP

One of the simplest explanations I've heard was the one that Steve Jackson used to explain the difference between Ki/Force and Psionic power. The focus in the difference between the two is less on what you can do with the power and more on the origin of where the power comes from.

Ki is the power from without, and Psionics is the power from within. When using Ki powers to affect other people you are manipulating the Ki around you, when using Ki powers on yourself you're manipulating your own Ki. With Psionics you're using your advanced brain powers to manipulate the world around you.

[Nomadic]

Another skewed belief of mine is that there are only two kinds of sci-fi.

1. Hard science fiction - like the stuff of Niven, Clarke, and Heinlein. Hard sci-fi uses science and scientific ideas to create the fantastical future elements that drive that kind of story.

2. Pseudo science fiction - like Star Wars, Hubbard, Piers Anthony, and Vonnegut. Pseudo sci-fi uses the tropes of science fiction as flavor to go into philosophical, and otherwise purely fantasy storylines.

I prefer hard sci-fi. I never read pseudo sci-fi. Science Fantasy falls under pseudo science fiction (by my defintaion.) and although a fun movie series to watch, its not something I want to play.

Not that there's anything wrong with either, just a preference for one over the other.

Time travel could be real, psionics could be real, elves aren't real - I prefer elves and dragons, etc.

GP

Yea I like to keep hard sci-fi and fantasy separate. Never been a fan of psionics since its sort of an odd bridge between them. Hard sci-fi is my favorite though like you I enjoy my elves.