What is Ki?

[Steel General]

OK I'll throw my 2 cents in with my own screwy definition(s) as relates to RPGing;

Psionics - Using the power of thought to affect/manipulate the world around you

Ki/the Force/etc. - Using the innate (spiritual) energy in all things affect/manipulate the world around you.

Not sure there is a correct definition - though you probably could go to a dojo and get the resident master to define Ki/Chi/etc. for you.

[Midgardsormr]

I've been thinking about it a little bit, and it may come down to a matter of that word "source." Ki and psionic power are both internal power—inherent in the practitioner, whose training brings it forth to manifest outside of the body. In a sense, they are both a mystical "self" power. While the two things are quite dissimilar, they're really not much further apart than some of the other variations in 4e power sources.

For instance, both the Warlock and the Wizard utilize the Arcane (literally "hidden, secret") power source, but while the Wizard's power comes from the study of hidden knowledge, the Warlock's comes from a bond with a supernatural force.

Another example would be the Druid and Barbarian. Both are Primal ("basic, essential, first") heroes, but the Druid draws on a symbiotic relationship with nature, while the Barbarian taps his animalistic essence.

I think I might have chosen a different name for the Psionic power source, but I think a case can be made that psionics and ki bear a certain similarity that makes it reasonable to lump them together into a single category. I don't know what name I would pick, though. Maybe simply Internal?

edit: and I see I have cross-posted with two others who have said much the same thing. Great minds think alike, but what's our excuse?

[Gamerprinter]

You're missing my point here. Ki is in fact only partially internal.

In my mind a PC utilizing Ki energy to power spells and effects is using Ki within himself, his fellow party members, the ground that he stands on and other elements surrounding him. In fact a manifester of Ki could actually draw Ki source from an opponent's Ki, especially if the opponent is not a Ki manifester.

Psionics is individual only. Ki is everywhere.

While manufactured goods contain Ki for instance, it is much less so than an natural rock, tree, stream or animal. When in a city environment, though Ki is present (especially in people), but weaker as the Ki in manufactured goods is weaker.

If both Ki and Psionics were internal to oneself only - I'd say you're right, the difference is only semantic. However, I know that Ki is everywhere, thus a Ki class is accessing power from everything around him, including himself.

To me, that's a huge difference. And I enforce that difference in my Kaidan Japan-based setting.

@Karro, while it may seem silly to us, in the orient, that rock with Ki in it that is just sitting there is actually doing something - its sitting there absorbing the energy at that location. It is not inert, and is as much alive as we are. Just that rocks don't move - which is part of its "life cycle."

GP

PS: except that Ki is also internal, I think it would be a better argument that Ki and Primal was the same thing - much truer than Ki and Psionics.

[msa]

You're missing my point here. Ki is in fact only partially internal.

I think the point we are all making is that the mechanics end up being pretty much the same. Ki and Psionics users both manifest their ability through inner focus and meditation. They both use their power to augment their own strength, sense the world around them, and create and wield latent energy. So the difference is mostly flavor.

The truth is, I always just assumed psionics were rules for an eastern style of power anyways. The whole concept is just not well defined in western mythology, where humans largely petition external sources for power. I just thought psionics were a fantasy version of the force... eastern-inspired mystical power.

Now I'm not saying this isn't a valid or interesting avenue to explore in your game or your work. I just think that, to us uninitiated, the difference between the two is pretty marginal. If you want them to be different, it might be interesting to have ki work worse in cities or have slightly different effects. But I also think you could just reflavor 'psionics' to 'ki' a bit and very little would be lost.

[Gamerprinter]

Much of this talk is academic. I am as much speaking of the concept of Ki outside the game, as it is a part of it.

In Japan, those manufactured good that have an intended short life span, such as a folding fan or a pair of straw sandles, as opposed to furniture, a house or a ship - can come alive, after a century of continued survival.

Theres a story of an old man that bought a pair of straw sandles. Under normal use, depending on how much walking he does, a pair of straw sandles can last a week or a few months. The old man died shortly after buying them, and for some reason the sandles got buried in the closet so to speak, and disappeared. A century later, the great grandson of the old man, found the pair of sandles and they moved and danced around.

So although taking a much longer period of time, that inert rock could become animated through the power of Ki. So all things have Ki and are alive, just not the same as normal living things.

The rock doesn't require a brain or other proof of animal/plant life, yet not only does it store Ki, Ki can give the rock supernatural life aspects.

I know this doesn't matter to the game, but further as differences to what Ki really is.

GP

[msa]

I am as much speaking of the concept of Ki outside the game, as it is a part of it.

Ah. Well, outside the game I am sure there is some difference that believers see. As a universal non-believer, I have nothing to contribute. Chi vs. Ki. Catholic vs. Protestant. Mayayana vs. Pure Land. Zen vs. Chan. They all look the same to me

[Nexis]

So if I have this straight in my head.
Psy- The person, specificaly the brain, is a reactor. It generates the energy that the person then manipulates and uses.
Ki- The person is a capasiter. Absorbing the (potential) energy in all things and manipulates that to his own ends.
So Ki is a realisation and sencitivity to the living force of the world (Gia) and learned to channel that force spiritualy. While, say, a wizard does the same thing but using more brute force means to rip the energy from the living world.
There is definatly an interesting idea in here to use Ki and Psy in the game while not needing the eastern flavor.
Say isn't that like a Druid? Using the life force of plants to power themselves?

[Valarian]

Given that rocks have Ki energy, but no brains, therefore possess ki power but not psychic power, the question that immediately pops in my mind is: can the rock, of it's own will, actually do anything with its ki energy?

@Karro, while it may seem silly to us, in the orient, that rock with Ki in it that is just sitting there is actually doing something - its sitting there absorbing the energy at that location. It is not inert, and is as much alive as we are. Just that rocks don't move - which is part of its "life cycle."

I was going to throw in a similar point. As an animist, I find the discussion interesting, even without the reference to D&D4e. From an animist's point of view, all living things (which include natural things such as rocks, mountains, etc.) contain a soul (life-force / anima) - which seems to be very similar to the concept of the Ki.

[Karro]

You're missing my point here. Ki is in fact only partially internal.
Psionics is individual only. Ki is everywhere.

@Karro, while it may seem silly to us, in the orient, that rock with Ki in it that is just sitting there is actually doing something - its sitting there absorbing the energy at that location. It is not inert, and is as much alive as we are. Just that rocks don't move - which is part of its "life cycle."

GP

PS: except that Ki is also internal, I think it would be a better argument that Ki and Primal was the same thing - much truer than Ki and Psionics.

I think you're touching on part of why I, personally, find your argument not completely convincing, rendering this a semantic debate. I'll allow that the association of degree of "naturalness" of an object may render it more or less powerful or inert with regards to ki, which from a certain outlook is vastly different from a typical understanding of psionics.

But where I think you're wrong is the assertion that psionics is only internal. Because psionics involves doing something external to the body without the physical effort of the body itself, this implies, to me, that the "mental exertion", per se, is being performed through some medium. Since the results of that exertion are external to the psionic user, the medium, by necessity, is also external. I suggest this is the case because if the power were only internal, then the psionicist would only be able to affect things internally (i.e. self-heal, increase in strength, etc) but not affect things externally except through the medium of his own body. To me, the fact that the power can be applied externally implies that the power has an external component. In the case of psionics, the means of activation, of accessing this external medium, is internal via the mind, but the power still manifests externally.

The question then arises: what is this medium by which a psionic user is able to exert his/her mental influence on the world outside him/herself? If that medium were the omnipresent will of a diety, we would call the power "divine". If that medium was some strange and unseen mystical energy derived from the resonnance from elemental material planes (or whatever your preferred explanation for the source of magic in D&D) then we'd call it "arcane" power. Both Ki and Psionics seems to be something else... something that is invisible and exists within the world and is manipulable through conscious application of effort. Are these energies the same? Who can tell? They're both invisible and omnipresent and cannot be detected through any of the normal sensory means.

Another way I have of looking at it is that psionics is a codification of so-called "ESP" and parapsychology. The connection, again, is that if we're "perceiving" something with non-standard senses, then there is something there to be perceived with non-standard senses, or that all things have a quality that lies beyond the physical characteristics we are normally aware of (size, color, shape, mass, sound, texture, etc. etc.)

To your point, however, given the connection between ki and the natural world, and the degree to which ki is influenced by something natural, inherent, and primal I think you can build a strong case that ki is, in fact, a part of this "natural" or "primal" category of power forces.

At the end of the day, I am neither for nor against "ki" as a source of energy being classifed with or without "psionics". To me, the difference is primarily one of flavor and fluff for the game. Especially since all powers mechanically work the same, apparently, in 4e. So if the flavor and fluff don't suit you, then I agree that's a valid reason for you to eschew 4e. My only point here is to demonstrate, probably redundantly, that you can argue that they are the same thing. I even thought up a story once where they effectively were the same thing. A setting or story where they are totally different and work in completely different ways is also conceivable. That's why I think it's a semantic question: it's all about how you think about it.